Phase 3 BRIDGE trial to compare GEM/DOC vs BCG

6 months 1 week ago #62021 by joea73
Good points.

I see the tendency is to overtreat than undertreat cancers, but I think it makes a sense as long as overtreat become hazards.   

Dr. Michael O'Donnell of University of Iowa has done many studies for intravesical chemotherapies.  So, there must have been a reason why he used  6 weekly induction + monthly maintenance up to 2 years when he decided to try GEM/DOC treatment.  Once a certain treatment protocol is established with a good efficacy with acceptable side effects, i see the treatment protocol usually does not change. But, how each patient reacts to the  treatment is different so the protocol is adjusted by pausing the treatment or dose reduction to deal with individual cases. 

 Incidentally, the recent result of retrospective study in regards to side effects between GEM/DOC vs BCG says the early termination of the treatment due to side effects is 2.9% with GEM/DOC and 9.2% with BCG indicates less toxicity of GEM/DOC vs BCG.     
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6 months 1 week ago #62020 by Cgoodwin334
Replied by Cgoodwin334 on topic Phase 3 BRIDGE trial to compare GEM/DOC vs BCG
 Just thinking out loud

on phase III trial if the initial response of Gem/Doc shows good outcome of 3 6 9 12  month intervals

2 yrs should be designed 16 22 28 every 6 months year two..rather than monthly

i know the study has already been designed …but over kill can’t be good either 

but what do I know?

Carla

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6 months 2 weeks ago #62011 by Cgoodwin334
Replied by Cgoodwin334 on topic Phase 3 BRIDGE trial to compare GEM/DOC vs BCG
Excellent synopsis of cell functioning and reasons for maintenance intervals

Thank you Joe
carla 

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7 months 2 weeks ago #61988 by sara.anne
Replied by sara.anne on topic Phase 3 BRIDGE trial to compare GEM/DOC vs BCG
Very interesting summary, Joe!  Thank you

Sara Anne

Diagnosis 2-08 Small papillary TCC; CIS
BCG; BCG maintenance
Vice-President, American Bladder Cancer Society
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7 months 2 weeks ago #61987 by joea73
I saw a presentation by Dr. Ashish Kamat of MD ANDERSONS explaining that the reason why BCG is administered thee weeks  for maintenance is because the immune response peaks at at 3rd dose, and start declining if the 4h dose is given.  They tested the amount of interleukin-2 in urine which regulates CD8 T-cell.   CD-T-cells kill BCG infected bladder cancer cells. Declining of  interleukin-2 indicates that  T-cells are being exhausted.   Note that for the same reason, 6 weeks administration of BCG are considered optimum.  There are so called memory T-cells.   Though  most T-cells initially invoked by BCG die 2-3 days after they are invoked by BCG, some percentage of T-cells continue to live.  Technically speaking though I do not know how long  Memory T-cells live off hand, Memory T-cells give durability of BCG treatment.  A case in point, BCG treatment gives about 55% complete response for CIS by initial 6 weeks treatment, but the complete response rate increases to 85% at 9 months without maintenance treatment.  This is due to Memory T-cells.

Chemotherapy uses body's ability to lead cell to Apoptosis (Self Death)  when a cell division cycle. fails.  Gemcitabine interferes  the process of DNA replication in early part of cell division cycle and Docetaxel interferes building of microtubules just before the cell divides into two daughter cells. In both cases, it invokes apoptosis, killing cancer cell. Actually kills normal cells too but normal cell do not go into cell division cycle often whereas cancer cells are constantly dividing. So, chemotherapy kills many cancer cells but a few healthy cells.  Chemotherapy does not offer durability as BCG does not rely on immune systems as BCG treatment does.

I do not know when and how they came up with 6 weeks initial treatment for intravesical chemotherapy.  Intravesical chemotherapy was first used in 1903 and various chemo agent were tried.    I see 1995 publication of a study tested Epirubicin for CIS and T1HG.  Patients were given intravesical Epirubicin for weekly for 10 weeks without maintenance.  In the current AUA guidelines, a six week course of  intravesical chemotherapy or immunotherapy  is recommended.  Also, it says that in an intermediate patient who completely responded to an induction course of intravesical chemotherapy, a clinician may utilize maintenance therapy.  It does not say how often at what interval.  

Dr. Michael O'Donnell of Univ of Iowa is know as a  early guru for NMIBC along with Dr. Lamm of Univ of Arizona.  Dr. Michael O'donnell is considered as a guru for intravesical chemotherapy, and devised six new intravesical chemotherapy treatment.  Dr. O'Donnell began studying of intravesical chemotherapy combinations over two decades.   So, probably we can take the treatment protocol 6 weeks + monthly maintenance as the result of his years of study and clinical experiences which gave the most efficacy with acceptable toxicity.
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7 months 2 weeks ago #61986 by sara.anne
Replied by sara.anne on topic Phase 3 BRIDGE trial to compare GEM/DOC vs BCG
That is part of the question this trial is designed to answer.  They are comparing the currently most common dosage schedules of both.
One might ask, instead, why are they giving BCG three weeks at a time for 30 months?  Is it because it is less effective?

Sara Anne

Diagnosis 2-08 Small papillary TCC; CIS
BCG; BCG maintenance
Vice-President, American Bladder Cancer Society
Forum Moderator
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