Jim-
yes, i think we're talking the same list, ie-
listserv.acor.org/archives/bladder-cancer-cafe.html
you do have to check a box to get the daily e-mails( you'll get 20+ a day--I use Outlook wizard to have them go striaght to a folder to keep my in box clean); or you can just search the archives.
reur questions- I could have been more complete in my response, partucularly now rereading your first post.
1st cystoscopy (poke and peek or p&P) found a 3 cm tumor. The TURB a week later also found a second smaller tumor- both were resected (removed and biopsied). First analysis gave a G2 finding. We asked for second opinion, and sent the slide to Mem Sloan Kettering- they bumped it to G3; another independent eval by the orig pathology dept also returned G3. ok everyone agrees! Also everyone confident it's non-invasive.
Waited three months; 2nd p&p--indications of 3 new tumors, but very small, just starting to show. 2nd TURB. It was at this point that BCG was indicated (but required 6 weeks of healing from the TURB before we could start- want to be clear of bleeding and infection). So your case seems similar. If the tumor comes back in 3 months, the aggressive nature is confirmed, and since you are catching it early, BCG is the next step. (btw, BCG is ONLY for Ta and T1 BC-- once T2(muscle invasion), you go striaght to (1) analyzing if it's anywhere else (lymph nodes, prostate, etc) and (2) barring that, take out the bladder. If (1) is positive, you might do other surgeries and/or chemo.
Ok- but you are still early. Continuing our timeline: after BCG, we couldn't for 4-6 weeks because the lining is raw and red and still recovering. After 1 month we did a P&P and while still somewhat inflamed, there was no evidence of any tumors (6 mo now since last TURB.). But then 1 month after that a new one shows up, It's about 1/2 to 1 cm, new place, "didn't look malignant, probably just a polyp due to the agressiveness of the BCG."
Not! After 3rd TURB, again staged the same. the consistency of the stagng and grading is actually reassuring. Yes this is agressive, but yes, it is staying non-invasive. Uro #1, being conservative, still wants to yank the bladder.
Enter the Web Cafe big time- I use the archives and post questions and those that have gone before point me to various references and experiences. This leads us to pursue "cancer centers" for 2nd opinions. MSKettering is very professional, but essentially says, you want to come here, we re-stage you to find out first hand the status of things. While at Mass Gen, I ask them about the BCG + interferon work, and they immediately refer us down the block to Beth Israel Deaconess where, somewhat accidentally, we talk with Dr. DeWolf who was O'Donnell's partner in all the trials of the late 90's (still on-going). (Actually the nurse practicioner there is as important, historically). they are confident that we are very good candidates for the BCG+ regimen, reminding us that there is little or no correlation between a recurrence after BCG alone, and success with interferon. We started that yesterday. oh, and btw, there was eveidence of a tumor just starting up again, new location. Very small - this being 2.5 months since last TURB.
so again, in your case, yes, if it comes back agressively, BCG is the next right thing to try. Then if it comes back aggressively after that, you are in our situation, and you need to evaluate if you have time to try BCG + Interferon (I do understand they have it in Europe, but from where you are you may have to travel to get it - it's something that is a little dicey to mix up, handle, as I understand it- ie - you just don't import it to your facility)
I was confused about the word recurrence, and its importance. I guess we have had 3, one after each TURB. But obviously only one of those following BCG. (since we've only done it once!)
oh, one more thing about why G3 is so serious. The inside of your bladder, urethra and ureters are like ONE continuous membrane (skin). Hence, if the cancer is active in this membrane, it can pretty much crop up, literally, anywhere. It usually stays in the bladder, but if not attended to , can eventually spread to those other locations which is harder to get at, obviously.
the hardest part about all this is the waiting between peeks, the wondering and the "what i don't know i don't know" piece. Again, the WebCafe has helped us interpret what we hear, and is valuable in helping us over the "what we don't know we don't know" hurdles.
Good luck, Jim,
/r Eric