TURBT not scheduled until May

2 years 3 weeks ago #61242 by joea73
Replied by joea73 on topic TURBT not scheduled until May
I believe P means pathologically diagnosed, meaning that a pathologist analyzed the specimens of the bladder.  In the case of the graph, the pathologist checked the bladder specimens  taken from the surgery to remove the bladder.  It corresponds to T1, T2. etc.

In case of staging, sometimes prefix c is used to indicate for the clinical staging.

National Comprehensive Cancer Network (NCCN) guidelines page 8 (BL-1) defines the prefix "c" and "p" for staging bladder cancer as follows

The modifier "c" refers to clinical staging based upon bimanual examination under anesthesia, endoscopic surgery (biopsy or transurethral resection) , and imagines studies (eg. CT scan).   The modifier "p" refers to pathologic staging based upon cystectomy and lymph node dissection.

www2.tri-kobe.org/nccn/guideline/urological/english/bladder.pdf

best

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2 years 3 weeks ago #61241 by Jacko
Replied by Jacko on topic TURBT not scheduled until May
Thankyou for this information.

Could you please explain the meaning of the various 'P' plots. I assume they are the various stages of BC but can't compare them with the current T stages we now use.

Thankyou.

CIS diagnosed May 18
2 TURBS
6 BCGs 2018
3 Maintenance BCGs 2019
Return of CIS Sept 2019
Bladder, prostate and urethra removal Oct 2019

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2 years 3 weeks ago #61240 by joea73
Replied by joea73 on topic TURBT not scheduled until May
It is absolutely not acceptable to have the initial TURBT 2 months after cystoscopy.
Usually it is done a week or two weeks after cystoscopy.

The strategy for bladder cancer patients or any cancer patients is prevent metastasis.
Once the cancer spreads to other key organs.  the 5 survival rate drops to less than 10%.

We still depend upon seeing the blood in urine (hematuria) as the main diagnosis tool
for predicting bladder cancer.   Actually 8%% of people diagnosed with bladder cancer
were diagnosed after they saw they experienced hematuria.

Unfortunately, by the type people are diagnosed with bladder cancer, 5% are already metastasized
and 20% have their bladder cancer progressed to the muscle layer  in the bladder wall.    Once the cancer
progresses to the muscle layer, the chances of metastasis increases before there are many blood vessels
and lymphatic vessels in the bladder muscle tissue through which the cancer cells can move to 
other organs.   How deep the cancer progressed in the muscle layer is expressed as T2a T2b T3a T3b   T4.
The cancer at T2a,T2b.T3a,T3b is still contained in the bladder, the chance of metastasis increases as the cancer
progresses deeper in the muscle layer. This is because the deeper the cancer progressed, the longer the cancer
was given a chance for metastasis.    So, the earlier the bladder removed, the longer survival the patient can expect,
i.e. see the attached graph from 2018 Urotoday journal.

70-75% of patients are diagnosed as non-muscle bladder cancer, such that the cancer has not progressed to the muscle layer. But 20-20% are diagnosed as high risk non muscle bladder cancers, which include T1HG (high grade) or CIS (carcinoma insitu).  In both cases, if the cancer treatment is provided early enough,  it is possible to prevent the cancer to progress to the muscle layer.  

So, it is so important that TURBT is done asap after cystoscopy.  The goal of TURBT is not only remove the tumor but also provides
tumor tissue samples to a pathologist so the pathologist can determine, if the tumor has already progressed to the muscle layer, or if it has progressed to the connective tissue (T1) or the cancer has just stayed at the surface of the lining of the bladder.  Also the pathologist can look at cancer cells and determine if it is an aggressive type cancer or non-aggressive cancer.    If it is aggressive type of cancer, the earlier the treatment is given, the higher chance the cancer can be stopped from progressing further.

Very experienced urologists often tell how bad the cancer is by looking the cancer during cystoscopy.  But, there are always exceptions.  

I have known some patients whose cancer progressed so rapidly and metastasized multiple organs only a few months after the patient was diagnosed with bladder cancer.   I always wonder if each steps from hematuria, cystoscopy, TURBT, pathology, imagines including   such as pet scan were  done timely, the stages of bladder cancer could have been identified early and the appropriate treatment was giving on time,  the patient could have better chance.   So two months counts in this kind of situation.  

If it is really difficult to have timely TURBT,  you may want to ask urine analysis such as cytology, uroVysion, cxBladder as those urine analysis can find out if the tumor is high risk (HG and CIS) or not.   If it is high risk tumor, then TURBT should be done ASAP.

Incidentally, TURBT is one of the  most important steps in the treatment for non-muscle invasive bladder cancer, so preferably the urologist has years of experience in TURBT,    best


https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRepI5sW000125qYtXQTexsZo9q9_apmtAMhOehNyeHIJ9cd82Tt0LT-RxTqti5QcFd5b0&usqp=CAU





www.cancer.org/cancer/bladder-cancer/detection-diagnosis-staging/survival-rates.html

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2 years 3 weeks ago - 2 years 3 weeks ago #61238 by Alan
Replied by Alan on topic TURBT not scheduled until May
!!! I am glad Sara Anne responded. She has a better take on this! So, no apologies needed. I'll just add that second TURBs are often done just to make sure what is seen the first time is correct.

DX 5/6/2008 TAG3 papillary tumor .5 CM in size. 2 TURBS followed by 6 instillations of BCG weekly with a second round of 6 after a 6 week wait.

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2 years 3 weeks ago #61236 by sara.anne
Replied by sara.anne on topic TURBT not scheduled until May
Hello!

I am making the assumption that the urologist has seen something that could be cancer and has scheduled him for a TURBT to first, remove whatever is there and second, to confirm whether it is really cancer or not.  I NEVER disagree with my friend, Alan, but there is always a first time.  My urologist saw some things he wasn't happy about during my first TURBT.  However, due to several factors....both at my end and at his...we were unable to schedule the TURBT for six weeks.  He said that the TURBT needed to be done soon, but six weeks was NOT a problem.

Had the TURBT, was diagnosed with papillary bladder cancer.  Path report did indicate some "areas of irritation" so my uro did a second TURBT and I was then also diagnosed with CIS (carcinoma in situ).  Had BCG treatments and have been cancer-free for 14 years!

IF your husband is really comfortable with this doctor, I don't think that waiting is going to affect his outcome.  If he switches to a new doctor, the initial cystoscopy would be repeated, and then the TURBT scheduled.  Probably wouldn't save any time.  In addition, many hospitals are swamped with minor surgery cases that were put off due to COVID.   Operating rooms are scheduled way out.  Your husband should ask to be put on the "cancellation list" just in case a slot opens up.  

Sara Anne

Diagnosis 2-08 Small papillary TCC; CIS
BCG; BCG maintenance
Vice-President, American Bladder Cancer Society
Forum Moderator
The following user(s) said Thank You: Alan

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2 years 3 weeks ago #61234 by Alan
Replied by Alan on topic TURBT not scheduled until May
OK. Yes, I would find a faster TURB operating venue. While most of the time you still have a few months to react should a biopsy show high grade, sooner is still the better. Here's hoping he can get scheduled sooner and also hope it is simply nothing.....which sometimes does happen.

DX 5/6/2008 TAG3 papillary tumor .5 CM in size. 2 TURBS followed by 6 instillations of BCG weekly with a second round of 6 after a 6 week wait.

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